LeQuita: Good morning, and welcome to the Distillery Podcast. And thank you again, Jay Paul, for agreeing to have this discussion.

Jay-Paul Hinds: Oh, no problem at all, Dr. Porter.

LeQuita: Well, we're talking today about your book, A Gift Grows in the Ghetto, Reimagining the Spiritual Lives of Black Men. And I'm curious to know what prompted you to write this book at the time that you did?

Jay-Paul Hinds: Well, at the time that I did, I was about to enter my third year here at Princeton Seminary. I came here from Howard University, and the pressure was on. A part of it was professional pressures to produce a manuscript, a text, when I came on faculty here. And I spent several years at Howard trying to figure out what to write about for a first book, and I went through a thousand different ideas, I'm sure. But I think at that time I just settled on you know, what have you experienced? And are there any theological questions that come out of your background, your experience? And for me at that time, the most pressing question was simply, what did it mean to be a black man at that particular time in this environment? And the lessons I've learned about this experience over the years, and things I picked up watching how other black men have matured and had their own spiritual experiences, and some of the pains and frustrations they've experienced along the way. And, you know, some of the pains and frustrations I've experienced personally. So to answer your question, I think the real impetus to write the book was my personal experience and the experiences I've seen other black men have. And trying to see if I could find a way of writing a compelling research manuscript about that experience. I didn't want to, you know, usually people write, well not usually, but, you know, some people take to writing autobiographies about this. This is my experience growing up wherever, and this is my educational background, my family background, and that's enticing too, but approaching it from a more academic lens was something I thought would be interesting for me to do. And really, I've heard this comment numerous times that it's a short book, but there's a lot in there, and I try to have a certain kind of academic rigor in how I approach the topic. I didn't want it to be, thin in terms of the analytic approach I brought. So, trying to have it, so it didn't turn into a four or 500-page manuscript. Something that was short, but yet had some weight to it. It's something that I was really intentional about doing, but also, and again, Dr. Porter really keeping the focus on the experience, not just my own personal experience, but experiences I've really seen black men have over the course of my years observing what they've gone through. And so some of it is personal experience, and some of it is the experiences of prominent figures. Richard Wright is in. There's a little bit about James Baldwin. Also, the African-American experience in this country a bit. So the experiences plural, I think, are very important, and that's something I think really motivated me to write the book at that particular time.

LeQuita: Well, you certainly achieved your goals. I can I can attest to it. It covers a wide range, and it's a great book. Who all do you envision benefiting from what you present in the book?

Jay-Paul: Yeah, see, that now this is another challenge is that as an academic text, I think it'd be a little insincere for me to say, well, I wrote the book for the mass of black men who are going through the trials and tribulations of being a man in this environment. Most men are not going to pick up this book and read it out there, I don't think. It is an academic text. And odd enough with me even seeing saying that, I've had people come up to me and say they've come across it and they're not academics and they're not exactly the people who are church affiliated in some way. I mean, it's strange how these kinds of books trickle down to different areas where you have unsuspected readers encounter it. But ideally, if I could have somebody in mind, it would be a black male, I mean, ideally, probably in church or in some kind of faith environment, you're trying to figure out, you know, what can I do? I mean, they're feeling disconnected, they're feeling lost, they are feeling as though they're not being productive in various ways, and they can look for different men, and what being productive even means. But I mean the real thing I'm really trying to point to is the pain of isolation, spiritual isolation. I mean, you know the stories, Dr. Porter, the person who has a million friends but is absolutely alone

LeQuita: Amen.

Jay-Paul: The person who lives with a wife, kids, parents, in-laws all around, and it feels like nobody knows who they are, and they feel completely isolated. The person who, because of some previous mistake or maybe they've broken the law, maybe they've been incarcerated, they've been isolated from their families. You know, I hate to use the term black sheep, but they're the outcasts of the family, and they're isolated. So these various persons who feel disconnected for various reasons, they feel like it's over. This is the end. This is like their mark of shame. You know, this is from guilt. I've done something wrong versus shame. You are wrong. You are the problem. And, you know, getting stuck in that kind of mold where you yourself feel like I don't deserve to be in a relationship with anything. Forget any person, but even God, the divine. And I'm just in a state where I feel absolutely alone. I'm trying to offer a glimmer of hope. I'm not trying to gloss over the real existential problems that people have that cause isolation. But I mean, I think no matter who you are and what situation you're in or what you've done or how you may be viewed in society, there's always an opportunity to have some kind of connection, some spiritual connection. I think people need to know that there's nothing you can do, or no place where you are, or no depth you're falling to where you cannot be in a relationship with God. And that is the central message. I know people will cast you off and change their feelings about you, but the core message has to be that I will always be connected to this God who cares about me and sees me. And I think for many men, that's a starting point to forming better relationships in their lives. It has to start with that.

LeQuita: So, you do; you call it an academic text, but it is truly accessible to all. And I think what you just articulated is why it's so important that everyone has an opportunity to read some of these pages and hear how you develop this whole argument that you make, which, quite frankly, is truth from my own experience. Now you devote an entire chapter to it, it's called Ghetto Grown. I love your chapter titles, by the way. And you discuss the ghetto, what it is. It kind of felt in reading it that you describe it as a place, possibly even a mindset, and a concept. Can you share a bit about that?

Jay-Paul: Yeah. Well, you know, the first book written on the ghettos by a white scholar named Lewis Wirth is about the Jewish ghetto. I think I have it in the book somewhere. It wasn't about the black ghetto. I mean, the black ghetto came on later in the early 20th century. The ghetto, as I point to in the book, was usually a place reserved for the Jews in Europe, Italy. But later on became a residence of, lower class, poor, black residents. See the thing for me, and thisis why I really draw the connection with the wilderness, the biblical wilderness is that for many persons in the ghetto, they are literally cut off from the rest of society. And this is still the case today, whether it's economically, or whether it's various other social ways. It's really like almost a walled-off, even in some places, a visibly walled-off community. And as it was the case with the biblical wilderness and Walter Brueggemann, the Old Testament scholar, is really good at pointing this out in some of his work, that nothing was expected to grow in these spaces. I mean, it's a dead land, wild animals, nothing that could sustain you. And I looked at that and I read that and said, you know, that's some of the ways that we look at the modern ghetto today. We don't expect anything good to come out of these places. We don't think anything can grow, but things do grow. I mean, people still have to survive and make their living and still have to raise children and have families and try to have some kind of personal development go on in these spaces so that's happening and you know what are the resources that they're using to grow in these hostile environments that's something I was very very interested in. I grew up in an inner city in the ghetto and it was hard and there were things that you saw that you wish you didn't see and oftentimes you did feel separated from the wider communities and other neighborhoods but also I saw people making a way and thriving in some sense and for some it was that spiritual vibrancy that they had that they felt like even if i was in this space that doesn't mean that God doesn't care about me or that i've been abandoned and with that mindset, this is where the Hagar and Ishmael story comes in. You know, they always found a way. It's making a way out of no way, you hear all the time. You know, they always found resources in some way to help them not only survive, but in some cases even thrive in that environment. Now, does it happen all the time? No. But I mean, there are cases where people do make it out. They are ghetto grown. And there's a certain level of wisdom, I think, that's given with that, that I don't think you get from growing up in other places. I don't recommend that people go and raise kids in the ghetto. But it's like the Ishmael story. If you could come through that wilderness experience and survive that, and learn what it means to live without the benefits that other communities have really had that assurance that i'm not alone and I know who to rely on when things get bad and I know what it means to have healthy connections and I know what it means to have a gift and what that gift can do for me is extraordinary and I don't think that's something that is granted to other communities. When you get that kind of wisdom, when you've been in that kind of environment, I think that's really a gift, not just in terms of your own development, but what you can offer others as well. I think that's really beneficial.

LeQuita:
And that resiliency, you know.

Jay-Paul: Yes, which we have a crisis of resiliency now with young people in our communities. Part of the issue is, I want to point this out, Dr. Porter, too, and I bring this up oftentimes when I have this discussion about this topic, is that it takes a period of time to develop that kind of gift in these environments. Ishmael was not in the wilderness for a couple of days or a couple of weeks. This was years. And one of the things I kind of caution people to be mindful of is that we oftentimes try to pull people out of the wilderness before they learn to develop their gift because we feel maybe things are too hard or, maybe we want to help them, or maybe things will be too tough and they may not survive. And all those things are really valuable reasons to try to help people out. But the thing is, there's a lesson to be learned in these experiences. And sometimes I believe we kind of force people to get out of the wilderness or pull them out way before they learn the lesson they're supposed to learn. So what happens is eventually, you've got to go back in again. You got to go back in and learn the lesson you're supposed to learn the first time. And so I think the wisdom that those of us who are probably in relationship with persons who are going through a wilderness experience need to have is, we can be there with them, but do not pull them out before it's their time. Because when their time comes, Dr. Porter, the thing is, see, you cannot, and this is where I don't know if it's clear in the book, but I think it's a real detriment where you try to pull yourself out of the wilderness before it's your time. When it's really your time, the gift that you've been given in the wilderness will pull you out.

LeQuita:
And it's because of that experience you had in the wilderness that you have to develop that gift.

Jay-Paul: And you can't. See, that's the only thing that's going to see you can. And then another thing is you can have this gift and you're not aware of what it can You see what saying?

LeQuita: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jay-Paul: Because for Ishmael he gained skills in the wilderness.

LeQuita: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jay-Paul: So many of us, we have these gifts. Oh I'm so gifted. I'm so good. Do you know what it can do? Do you know its limitations? Do you know what it's for? Who it’s for? Your gift is not for everybody. Right. It's not. Now, I don't want to be selfish, just say, Oh, my gift is just for me. I don't think that's the case either. It is for somebody. Who's it for? Who's going to appreciate it?

LeQuita: Right.

Jay-Paul: But there's some people you could try to help with your gift, and they might think, oh, that's garbage. What is that good for? All right. That's good. Maybe it's not for you. I'll find somebody who it can help.

LeQuita: Right.

Jay-Paul: But all this is part of the time spent in the wilderness that we have to learn from. And that's why I say again, I mean, you can think you're ready. Oh, you know, I've been in this long enough, and I've matured. That may be the case, but do you have your gift, and do you know what it can do? That's a very important part of it.

LeQuita: Wow. I'm thinking of all the instances where we seek to pull someone out of something or even ourselves, but you're talking about before it's time.

Jay-Paul: Before it's time, yeah.

LeQuita: That's a wonderful point. You've talked about the story of Ishmael when, within the book, you talk about the modern, you compare or correlate, I guess, the modern ghetto with biblical wilderness and some of the skills that you believe Ishmael and, just, people in general, black men, but people in general in the ghetto that share some of that.

Jay-Paul: Well, the skill, I believe, is most important. Again, and this is a skill, is knowing how to maintain your giftedness.

LeQuita: How to maintain it.

Jay-Paul: And by giftedness, I mean, for me initially is that relationship. Nothing can separate me or should threaten this relationship. But that relationship takes time to develop, because one of the points I try to make in the book is that because Ishmael had been through so much being cast out of Abraham's house, being in some ways abandoned by his mother, Hagar, in the wilderness, trust did not come easy for him.

LeQuita: Yes. Yes.

Jay-Paul: And so part of the process that he had to undergo, and this kind of leads me to one of the theorists that I talk about in class a lot, Erik Erikson, he has this theory of psychosocial development. The first stage he talks about is basic trust. Basic trust is established for children, he believes, between birth and the age of two. Now this is the first stage, but also the most important stage, because without basic trust, you can't develop the other characteristics that you need to be a healthy adult for Erikson. But because Ishmael had experienced, again, being cast out of Abraham's house and then being abandoned by his mother in the wilderness. I mean, how long do you think it took for him to establish that kind of basic trust with God now? He couldn't go back to Abraham's house. That relationship was done. He had to learn to trust Hagar again, I'm sure. Now I'm out here in the wilderness. I have no resources. And now I have to learn to live and trust God. Right?

LeQuita: Right.

Jay-Paul: Now I'm sure that takes a long period of time. That's something he needed if he was going to survive in the wilderness. And again, Dr. Porter, I'm not saying that this is easy, and I'm not saying this is something every black man is going to experience. But for some, who feel that they're in this wilderness experience and they can't get out, and they feel so isolated, this might be what it takes for them to survive this experience. Right? And it may take a long time for them to establish the kind of trust that's going to be needed for them to get the other skills that they'll need to survive in the wilderness. So the primary skill I think is needed is a kind of basic trust that will help them survive in the wilderness. And then the other skills that could be anything, you know, it could be, for Ishmael, he became an archer. For other black men, it may be developing some kind of skills in the arts. It may be being a leader. It may be that for some black men, they get their voice and they feel like they're called to the ministry. For others, it may be writing. I mean, there are a countless number of skills that you can get, but this thing is what you've been given through this relationship to help you survive in the wilderness. So again, I wanna emphasize that a little while ago we talked about what it takes to get out, now we're talking about what it's going to take for you to survive in the wilderness during that period of time when you're not going to get out. And for some, Dr. Porter, and some people don't like what I say, this, for some people, you may never get out. What if the wilderness is your home? Right? What if I have to live the rest of my days in this hostile wilderness?

LeQuita: Yes.

Jay-Paul: How am I gonna survive, right?

LeQuita: Yes.

Jay-Paul: And so this is where I think that relationship gives young men, black men, something they can be productive doing something that helps them attain that sense of self-worth in this wilderness environment. Because if not, I wanna be very clear about this point. If you do not have this relationship, and if this giftedness relationship does not give you some kind of skill, you will die in the wilderness.

LeQuita: Yeah.

Jay-Paul: Right there's no middle ground. You are either going to thrive and live and find some joy in what for many is a dark place, or you will die. So I think there were only two options that we had.

LeQuita: You know, as you're talking, my mind just went back to my field education when I was at Princeton Seminary, and I did it in Jamaica in Baptist churches. And I had done some empowerment work here in the States for women who had been abused. And so I had a whole program for that, which I routinely did at churches here.

Jay-Paul: Oh, wow.

LeQuita: When I got there, my intention was to do the same thing, but I had to make that shift that you just talked about because the things that I would say to women here, many of them, were a bit different when you talked about someone who was not going to be leaving. I mean they didn't necessarily want to but there were situations that they were in and they were going to be it so that was their wilderness right and so there had to be certain skills so I learned a lot there because the truth of the matter is we have that here as well but i remember that shift just as you were talking and it is huge it makes a difference and again the timing, the timing.

Jay-Paul: Yeah. The time. Yeah. And I think we have to be careful what kind of theology we do spread when we go to different venues, you know.

LeQuita: Thank you for that. That's the real key.

Jay-Paul: I know. I mean, everybody's not going to be in the suburbs and going to a private school and driving a BMW.

LeQuita: That's right.

Jay-Paul: It'd be great if they could, but for some, their lives will be in a hostile environment. And how are we going to grow in this? Because, again, it's either death or growth. If you're not growing, You're dying. Sometimes you're moving between the two. It's not always just growth, and it's unending growth. Sometimes you have a period where you feel like you're stunted and you can't grow anymore. What can inspire growth and get growth started again? And that's why I always go back to that relationship, the initial relationship. I have to learn to trust God again.

LeQuita: That's the gift.

Jay-Paul: Nothing can break that. Because when everything else fails, that can always get me started again. That can inspire me. Show me new things, new resources I haven't seen before. I know for some that sounds like it's too metaphysical, transcendental, or something, but this is how it works. If you're living a life of faith, this is the kind of thing you have to hold on to.

LeQuita: Yes, and that gift must grow. that relationship is growing too with every experience, right.

Jay-Paul: Yeah, it has to grow. And the thing about it is that because of that gift, that relationship is growing, you will grow as well. And things around you, I mean, think about it. It was God, Ishmael, and Hagar in the wilderness. His gift had to be so strong and had grown to such a point that now he can not only take care of himself, but he can also take care of Hagar as well. Because all of them are stuck in the wilderness. Right? And see, Dr. Porter, the thing I think people have to understand, too, there was no going back to Abraham.

LeQuita: There was no going back.

Jay-Paul: Because I'm sure life was a lot easier. Life was a lot easier with Abraham. Right. It's like the children of Israel when they left Egypt.

LeQuita: That's right.

Jay-Paul: And how many people think about it? How many people go back to an environment that doesn't want them. But you will deal with the abuse. You will deal with their rejection because the wilderness is so hard. I'd rather be abused than in the wilderness.

LeQuita: And it's familiar.

Jay-Paul: Right. And it's familiar. I'd rather you treat me badly than deal with the wilderness. But guess what? You will be comfortable in Abraham's house. You'll be comfortable in Egypt, but you will never grow.

LeQuita: You will never grow.

Jay-Paul: And you will never find out what your gift is. Right? You may have Abraham's gift, but it's not God's gift. See the difference?

LeQuita: Yeah, Yeah.

Jay-Paul: Abraham's gift will not help you survive the wilderness.

LeQuita: Well, and you talk about the gifted man versus the man without a gift.

Jay-Paul: Yes. Yes. Well, I got that from the Russian novelist Dostoevsky. He had a novel called The Devils. He said that he was living during a time when this was before the Russian Revolution, where you had all these revolutionary groups who were trying to topple the government, and all these different things were going on. But he feared that these people were trying to lead society based upon their own plans, their own vision of what the good society was. He believed that if we follow the plan that these persons have for the good society, force is going to fail, right? Because it's just a human vision of what society is. On the other hand, if we have a vision of society that is more directed towards what God wants, and that's not so directed on the self. So he called these persons, these leaders, who had these visions of what the good society could be. He called them giftless. Right. Because whthe ole vision was based on themselves. And so for me, the giftless man is the person who has these ideas of what a man can be or what I'm supposed to become or what kind of society I want to live in or even if you're a leader, you know, what kind of leader I want to be. But it's all based on their own self-creation. There's nothing that comes from divine inspiration or a vision handed down from God, so to speak. So I'm kind of talking about a man who is, and this is really my critique of the whole idea of self-reliance, too. The man who's so self-reliant, he has no one, that's beyond himself. So that's kind of what I'm talking about, the giftless man versus the gifted man. Ishmael, to me, through his wilderness experience, became a gifted man through his relationship. Through his relationship, he becomes a gifted man. Without that relationship, he would have remained giftless. Right? Disconnected, isolated, wrapped up in what he thought the good life could be, what he could become. The gifted man, through that relationship, really has a sense of what God wants him to be. God believes the good life for me can be. And sometimes that takes you a long time to find fruition. Sometimes it does take that willingness experience that may last years to get to be where God wants you to be.

LeQuita: Your final chapter entitled God Don't Like Ugly. And let me tell you, that was one of the first ones I ran to because I grew up hearing my mother say God don’t like ugly. But you talk about and you've been talking about this even now. The ghetto is being a place of hyper vulnerability as well as divine encounter.

Jay-Paul: Yeah.

LeQuita: I love that you juxtapose that. It's the danger. I mean, there's a danger, certainly if you're giftless, right?

Jay-Paul: Yeah.

LeQuita: But you talk about the divine encounter that can happen right there. And so there's something unique that can happen there that can nourish and transform the experience and trajectory of a person.

Jay-Paul: Yeah.
LeQuita: And even just in talking to you, I see even more in terms of the importance of the timing of it. And so thank you so much for that. You have covered a lot of ground in this book, and just to run through a few things, you talk about the characteristics of the figure of Sambo in Southern lore. Docile, irresponsible plantation enslaved person, Matt Turner, the leader of the largest slave revolt in the U.S. history, to the new Negro that emerged as more of a messianic figure, to Frederick Douglass, who had with an authentic liberation view, and so much more. And then you even talk of you talk about the psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud,

Jay-Paul: Yeah.

LeQuita: Right, the author of Native Son. So when you mention that about Hagar and Ishmael, his relation to her, in part-time and care, you talk about fathers and sons and that relationship. And so I just wanted to lift those things up because there is so much in this book that can speak to whatever needs any of us have, but particularly for Black men and Black men who either lived in the ghetto or do now, right?

Jay-Paul: Yeah.

LeQuita: And maybe who may have moved out of a situation before it was time, and that relationship. I think you do a tremendous job in doing that. At the end of the day, what would you say? And let's say this is to a Black man who is in the ghetto now recognizes how others perceive them or that there's no humans involved. What would you say?

Jay-Paul: Well, I think Dr. Porter, you know the public image of black men may never change. I think that's one of the beauties of the Ishmael story as well. you know the This whole thing that he was supposed to be a wild ass of a man, that never changed. I mean even after his relationship with God, he was still a wild ass of a man. But that doesn't mean you're out of relationship. I think that's what a lot of people have to learn. People may still view you negatively and there may be a lot of things about your circumstances that don't change again you may still live in the ghetto you may still be poor you may still lack an education you may still be imprisoned but do you have that relationship. I think that's where for some of us we get a little bit of light that can shine in all the darkness the darkness that's around us sometimes. I had the chance to go to Ghana a couple of years ago, and I visited the Cape Coast Castle And after they give you the tour of the castle and take you to the slave dungeons, you think, well, we can't get any worse than this. You know, the slave dungeons where I think they said only three out of 10 persons survived, and they take you to the door and no return. And you say, well, this is really a horrible situation. And you come through all that, and then they take you to the courtyard where they have this room, and by the room on top of the door, there's a skull with some bones, and the tour guide tells you, know this was the torture room. You thought the dungeons were enough. Three out of ten survived that. What else could it be in terms of torture? It had a separate room in the courtyard where he said that this is where they put the rebellious slaves. And the next question, of course, is, you know, well, what kind of torture did they do? I mean, you know, you go in the room, they let you walk in the room, and everything. And it's absolutely dark in there. There's no light. And the torture was that they would put you in there and leave you there just to rot away. Alone. I mean, one at a time, know, no interactions in a dark room. And I thought to myself, what a horrible way to die, to spend your last days completely alone and just let there just to rot away until you are passed on. But then I thought about it, Dr. Porter, you know that has to be like hell for a lot of people. But I thought, how many people, I'm sure some people went in there and they had breakdowns and they protested and they wept and they wailed about the situation. How many people welcomed it going into that room? Remember, they're coming out; they've been separated from their homes. They're in that dungeon. And on top of that, dungeon was a church that the Dutch built. So, you know, they're up there hearing songs of praise and hearing scripture and all this kind of stuff. How many people wanted to have that space and thought, you know, even in this darkest spot, even in this darkest place, place of death, I'm going to find a little bit of light. And to me, you know, it doesn't take much to give people just a little bit of hope in an environment of absolute death. A lot of this stuff sounds like academic jargon. Maybe it is, but if you can be in the wilderness and be abandoned by your father, Abraham, your mother abandons you, God's the one that started all of this, what can be worse? We've got to start this all over again. Now, if you can come through that, right? And know that God is with me. Whether it's in the wilderness, whether it's in the ghetto, whether it's in the slave dungeon, who can stop that kind of person?

LeQuita: Who can stop that type of person?

Jay-Paul: That doesn't mean life is great. I'm still broke. I'm still in the ghetto.

LeQuita: That's the point.

Jay-Paul: You cannot convince me that I need to die here. And that's the thing, right? You see what I'm saying? There's nothing you can do to tell me going to die here.

LeQuita: Amen.

Jay-Paul: Right? You see what I'm saying?

LeQuita: Amen.

Jay-Paul: And again, I might be broke, black, uneducated, wild ass of a man. That's all right. But guess what?

LeQuita: Guess what?

Jay-Paul: You can leave me here. I'm not going to die in here. And that to me is the message, right?

LeQuita: Oh, yeah.

Jay-Paul: Forget all the other stuff. I don't know if you're going to be rich. I don't know if you'll get a job at Princeton's seminary. I don't know if you'll get a PhD. But guess what? Take all that away. I'm not going to die here.

LeQuita: I'm not dying here.

Jay-Paul: Right? And that's the message.

LeQuita: Yes. Yes. That is the message.

Jay-Paul: You see what I'm saying?

LeQuita: God bless you.

Jay-Paul: All right.

LeQuita: My brother, as a godly, proud product of the ghetto community, Let me just close with a quote from Greg Ellison, our friend and brother. He said, after he hopes that this book will alter your vision of the ghetto and the gifts therein. You certainly have altered our vision of the gifts therein. Thank you so very much.

Jay-Paul: Thank you so much, Dr. Porter.